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Outside the Lines: 1 . . . And Only

Here's the transcript from Show 64 of weekly Outside The Lines - 1 . . . And Only

Host: Bob Ley, ESPN.
Reported by: Dave Revsine
Guests: Earl Woods, father of Tiger Woods; Joe Louis Barrow, Jr., national director of The First Tee; Pete McDaniel, author of Uneasy Lies.

Announcer - June 17, 2001.

Bob Ley, host - He's an icon...

Unidentified Male - Tiger Woods.

Ley - ... and a role model. But has Tiger Woods brought more minorities to golf?

Tiger Woods, 28 Career PGA Tour victories - I think what you're finding is it is awfully difficult to get started.

Lee Elder, First African-American to play in Masters Tournament - I would say that it's worse today than it was 15 years ago.

Ley - There are any number of youth outreach programs.

Narrator - Because the USGA acknowledges the importance of a young golfer's swing, and not his address.

Ley - Do these programs work?

Unidentified Male - It doesn't work for me; you know, they've put good money after bad results.

Unidentified Reporter - When you tell your friends you're going to go play golf, what do they say?

Unidentified Male - They laugh.

Unidentified Reporter - Why?

Unidentified Male - They think it's, like, an old white man's game or something.

Ley - Today on Outside The Lines - Can the game of golf expand its reach?

Announcer - Outside The Lines is presented by State Farm Insurance.

Joining us from ESPN Studios - Bob Ley.

Ley - You may not have heard of Adrian Stills or Tom Woodard. They make their living in golf. Stills as an instructor in Orlando. He played in the US Open in 1998. Woodard runs the City of Denver's seven golf courses.

They've moved on from that brief time in their lives that they played on the PGA Tour. But prior to Tiger Woods, they were the last African-Americans to earn their tour cards. That was more than 15 years ago.

While Tiger Woods is multiracial, he is the one and only African-American on the tour. That is an uncomfortable fact that assigns no blame, but begs questions about the effectiveness of youth golf programs, and just when we may see tangible proof of Woods' unprecedented social impact on the game.

Ahead on this Father's Day morning, I'll be speaking live with Earl Woods, Tiger's dad.

It seems such an unremarkable and obvious goal, expanding the game of golf to a more diverse group of players. But as Dave Revsine reports, getting to that point awakens harsh memories and can often prove elusive.

Dave Revsine, ESPN correspondent - This is last month's National Minority Collegiate Golf Championship, where more than 20 of America's historically black colleges met to battle it out for a national title. And these are the tournament champions of the Wildcats, and yes I can say Minority Collegiate Golf Championship. I asked coach Gary Freeman why he can't fill a team strictly with African-Americans.

Gary Freeman, head coach, Bethune-Cookman College - I can fill it with eight of them.

Revsine - OK.

Freeman - I could fill it with eight of them.

Revsine - So why don't you?

Freeman - Why? Because they don't shoot 74 or better. When you've got to coach and you are recruiting, you want the best players you can get. It has to do with talent, it has to do with performance, simple as that.

Revsine - At Jackson State, coach Eddie Payton, a former pro-football player and the brother of the legendary Walter Payton, faces the same problem.

Eddie Payton, head coach, Jackson State University - The pool is so shallow that every year there is one or two, two or three kids who can play at this level who are African-Americans. That all 20, 25 African-American, historic African-American colleges are trying to recruit.

Revsine - Given the difficulty of finding good college players, it can come as no surprise that there are few African-Americans playing golf professionally. In fact, there are more blacks in the NHL than on the PGA, LPGA and Senior PGA tours combined.

Elder - I would say that it is worse today than it was 15 years ago.

Payton - It's absolutely worse. When you look at the PGA tour, you've got Tiger. When you look at the LPGA tour, you have nobody. When you look at the tour, you've got one kid, Tim O'Neil that's out there making a difference.

Revsine - In fact, from 1961, when the PGA lifted its Caucasian's only clause to 1985, 26 golfers of African-American descent gained their tour cards. But since 1985, there has been only one, Tiger Woods.

Lee Elder attributes this staggering decline in part to the widespread use of the golf cart.

Elder - The majority of the African-Americans that play on the tour all pretty much came out of the caddy ranks in the early days. Charlie Sifford, Ray Botts, myself, Pete Brown, all of us came -- Jim Dent -- we all came from that area. And the fact that, that has now been abolished and taken away, gee, it's, you know, pretty hard.

Revsine - So while there may be less discrimination then there once was, many believe the historical racial barriers are being replaced by socioeconomic ones.

T. Woods - I think it is very difficult to separate the two. I think what you're finding is it's awfully difficult to get started.

Unidentified Male - You have no clubs; all hand-me-downs.

Payton - A lot of African-American parents will say that golf is too expensive. Which, you know, when you look at it, it is a lot less expensive than diamond stud earrings that you see a lot of 8-year-olds wear, a Starter jacket. You know, you can get a kid started in golf for $150 with a very good set of clubs.

Greg Marshall, Executive Director, National Minority Jr. Golf Scholarship Association - Unfortunately in this country, it does turn out to be a racial issue, just because of the economic strata that exists today. Generally, if you are talking about people in a lower end of the economic strata, unfortunately, that's affected people of color to a disproportionate degree.

Revsine - The key to increasing African-American participation in golf is through youth programs, like this one, Teens on the Green, founded by businessman Renny Roker. Although the goal of this program isn't necessarily to find the next Tiger.

Renny Roker, CEO, Teens on the Green - The goal is to give these youngsters a slice of life; a slice of life where they can walk and talk and network in a country club setting.

Revsine - What got you interested? Why did you say you wanted to play golf?

Nathaniel Popps, Teens on the Green - The funny thing about it is, I won a contest to -- my neighbor entered me in a contest to meet Tiger Woods. And while I was there, the pro had me hit a few balls, and he asked me how long I had been playing. I told him it was my first time playing; I never touched a club in my life. And I've been playing ever since.

Revsine - You just hooked?

Popps - Yeah, pretty much.

Revsine - So you got to meet Tiger?

Popps - Yeah, I got to meet Tiger.

Revsine - Do you look at him as a role model at all?

Popps - Oh, of course; I think Tiger is pretty much what I want to be in my life.

Revsine - Woods' success has had an immense impact on African-American golf. Teens on the Green, The First Tee, which was created to provide access to the game for financially disadvantaged children, and dozens of other youth programs sprung up in the aftermath of Tiger's historic first win at Augusta.

T. Woods - It's very humbling, I'll tell you that. And it's pretty neat to be able to be a part of a change like that. And it's a positive change because this golf -- this great game of ours, in the past wasn't accessible to everybody who wanted to play it. And it's getting to that.

Elder - I really don't know what we would have done as Afro-Americans if Tiger Woods had not come along. I think that we would have been forgotten about.

Marshall - I think Tiger has done so much for golf, and for minority kids. I told somebody the other day that when Tiger won his fourth in a row, I won. And millions of other people of color won. I mean, I had tears in my eyes, you know, I knew what it meant.

Revsine - Tiger's impact cannot be denied, and the 145 percent increase in African-American recreational golfers since 1986 is encouraging.

Yet some believe that many of the more recent changes have been cosmetic ones.

Payton - What I've seen in 15 years is not progress. We have more small people who are now into the game, which bodes well for the future. But we said that when we had Charlie Sifford. We said the same thing when Leo (Unintelligible).

But here we are 25, 30 years later saying, what's the direction of minority golf, or golf in the African-American community?

All the organizations that are out there, all the companies that are out there who all of a sudden jumped on the bandwagon and said, we want to do something to help minority golf. Well, they really didn't. They put a lot of money into making it look like they are really interested, but they haven't got the results either.

Ley - So many issues to consider this morning. Ahead, I'll be speaking live with Earl Woods, Tiger's father, on the efforts to bring golf to a more diverse group of youngsters in the game of golf.

And joining us now, Joe Louis Barrow Jr., the national director of The First Tee, an organization looking to bring minorities and inner city kids to the game of golf. Joe is the son of the epic American sports figure, heavyweight champion Joe Lewis. He was an avid golfer who, in 1952, played in a PGA event as an amateur, beginning the process that led the tour to integrate in 1961. Joe Louis Barrow Jr. joins us from St. Augustine.

Pete McDaniel is a senior writer with "Golf Digest," and the author of "Uneven Lies - The Heroic Story of African-Americans in Golf." And he is at ground zero, in Tulsa this morning.

Good morning to you both.

Joe let me begin with you. You heard certain words from Eddie Payton -- some criticism that these programs aren't getting the job done. What do you say?

Joe Louis Barrow Jr., National Director, The First Tee - Well, I really think that the programs like The First Tee, and For the Good of the Game with the USGA, and other programs are clearly an institutional start. I think in the past many of the programs were fragmented. They weren't there for the long run, and I think the outcome over time will be that The First Tee and other programs will generate a level of interest and consistency of interest that will allow these kids to take it to the highest level if they choose to take it to the highest level.

But as we all know, going on the PGA Tour, the LPGA Tour, is an awful significant commitment for these kids. And they have to have the will, the desire, and certainly the ambition to do so.

Ley - Well let's bring it back down to the college level, Pete, what do you make of Eddie Payton's criticism, or the situation where historically black colleges are giving scholarships? And these are schools with a historic mission that, transcending -- you would say -- some other schools, giving scholarships to non-black golfers.

Pete McDaniel, Senior Writer, "Golf Digest" - I think that's a cop-out, I really do. I think that the pool is shallow, there's no doubt about that. But I believe that there are some kids out there who deserve a chance. There are opportunities in this game, and they need a chance.

Ley - How do they get a chance?

McDaniel - Well, I think, historically, black colleges were founded to give them a chance at these opportunities. And I think through the First Tee, they are developing great players or potentially great players. And the colleges are turning their backs on these kids. The coaches should have -- I think they have their priorities all wrong. Coaches should be concerned with developing talent and developing good citizens instead of chasing championships. I think that's the wrong priority.

Ley - Joe do you agree?

Barrow - I think that there is clearly an opportunity for the coaches to balance their teams. They are obviously have the pressure on them to win. Eddie Payton basically wanted to increase the whole scope of Jackson State and not just compete at the lower levels. But he wanted to compete at Division One, and in order to do so he had to have a winning team.

But the question is whether or not he can balance that and also have great players, but also players from a minority ranks that can play with these other strong players. Because that whole group playing together, competing together, learning the skills together, I think is in their interest. So the coaches are in a tough position. Because their colleges are asking them to win, but at the same time there is not the talent pool in the African-American and minority community to allow them to field teams and take them to Division One.

Ley - Well the talent pool is thin, and there is a great amount of irony going into that. You used to have the United Golf Association, the all-black tour back in the '50s, '60s. And of course you had the caddy system, so you've got two vestiges of Jim Crow America that ironically produced the greatest influx of black golf professionals into the '70s.

Barrow - Well there is no question about that, and that has gone away. I think a whole general interest has gone away in terms of kids and exposures to the game of golf.

Ley - How? Why has that interest gone away?

Barrow - Well, I think it was Lee that suggested that the caddy programs, they've gone away. And that was clearly the feeder system for many people, not only blacks, but whites that started as caddies as well. And with the advent of the caddies going away, there was no consistent way for kids to get on the golf course, to be exposed to the game. And to be exposed to the men and women who they are caddying for, that inspired them to take it to the next level. I think that's where the First Tee and other such programs are going to be able to have a consistent level of opportunity by providing these kids with affordable access and consistent affordable access to be able to nurture their interest.

Ley - Well, so many of these programs have come down to talking about introducing minority youngsters, inner-city youngsters to the game of golf. We visited a housing project just several days ago in Queens, New York. Let's give you a chance now to listen to see whether some of these kids feel that golf is on their sports radar screen.

Unidentified Reporter - What's your favorite sport?

Unidentified Male - Basketball.

Unidentified Reporter - What's your second favorite sport?

Unidentified Male - Football.

Unidentified Reporter - What's your third favorite?

Unidentified Male - Hockey.

Unidentified Male - Basketball.

Unidentified Reporter - Second place?

Unidentified Male - Football.

Unidentified Reporter - Third?

Unidentified Male - Baseball.

Unidentified Reporter - Fourth?

Unidentified Male - Soccer.

Unidentified Male - Basketball.

Unidentified Male - Football.

Unidentified Male - Basketball is my favorite sport.

Unidentified Male - Basketball.

Unidentified Reporter - What's your second favorite sport?

Unidentified Male - Golf.

Unidentified Reporter - Who is your favorite sports hero?

Unidentified Male - Michael Jordan.

Unidentified Male - Al Iverson.

Unidentified Male - Karl Malone.

Unidentified Reporter - What about Tiger Woods?

Unidentified Male - He's all right.

Unidentified Male - He's great.

Unidentified Male - Great guy, good guy, you know.

Unidentified Reporter - Do you like golf?

Unidentified Male - No.

Unidentified Female - I think it's kind of boring.

Unidentified Male - There's no resources to, you know, play it out here.

Unidentified Reporter - If people brought you golf clubs and golf balls and gave you lessons, would you play?

Unidentified Female - Maybe.

Unidentified Male - Yes, definitely, definitely.

Unidentified Male - Oh yeah, I'll play.

Unidentified Male - Maybe for the fun of it, you know.

Unidentified Reporter - When you tell your friends you are going to go play golf, what do they say?

Unidentified Male - They laugh.

Unidentified Reporter - Why?

Unidentified Male - Because they don't understand nothing about golf. They think it's, like, an old white man's game or something.

Unidentified Male - I don't know, not too many black people play golf.

Unidentified Male - I thought I would have experienced a lot of racism and prejudice, but I didn't.

Ley - Well Pete, what do you make of those voices?

McDaniel - Well, I think those attitudes are the same as they were when, you know, when I was growing up, when we started playing. We started playing as caddies, and our friends thought we were crazy. They thought we, you know, should be playing basketball and football and the other core sports. But the fact of the matter is, golf is a great sport. There are opportunities. The problem is we don't have enough visibility.

Eddie Payton was right. We have Tiger Woods, and that's in front of the camera, it's behind the camera, it runs the entire spectrum. When I went to work for Golf World magazine in '93, one of the conditions was that I would have high visibility. Because I wanted people to know that African-Americans could write about the game, not only play it but write about the game. And I think that's the problem. There is a perception that we don't belong in this game. But it is only a perception.

Barrow - On the other side, I think it is very important to understand that people's long-term interests are also about their parents. I was introduced to the game of golf by my father when I was about five or six. I really took it up seriously when I was about 12. My stepfather played golf three days a week, and so golf has been a part of my life for all of my life. And I think the fact that there are more African-American parents who are playing, or Hispanic parents who are playing, they should encourage their kids to play.

And by encouraging their kids, and taking them to the golf course, they can nurture that interest and determine whether the kids want to have one go with a professional career. Golf is also a very important part of people's lives in the business community. So we just need to address the fact that golf is an institution in our society, and we have to attack it at different levels. And certainly the parents have a role to play as well as the college coaches, as well as programs such as the First Tee, and some of the other efforts there. I just think we have to work on it on many, many fronts if you will.

Ley - Guys, thank you very much. We'll have to leave it right there.

Thanks very much to Joe Louis Barrow Jr. and to Pete McDaniel.

And ahead we'll be speaking with Tiger's dad, Earl Woods. But first, what might golf do? Here the words of a social worker at those housing projects.

Unidentified Female - We try to keep kids alive, keep them safe, give them an education. And basketball is their vehicle for that. It's always been a vehicle now in our neighborhood. Golf has never been a vehicle. It's worth trying; maybe this keeps one kid alive. If it keeps two kids alive, it's a great thing.

T. Woods - Alright, you ready yet?

OK, see if you can hit this sand wedge -- let's see -- hit that cart right there. That cart. The key to practice is always move your targets around. And especially photographers.

Ley - And next I'll be speaking with Tiger's dad, Earl Woods, as we consider the effectiveness of programs to bring minority kids to the game of golf.

Ley - Joining us now from Orlando, Earl Woods. Good morning Earl, Happy Father's Day.

Earl Woods, Tiger's Father - Thank you.

Ley - How do you measure the effectiveness of programs to bring minority kids into golf? What's the yardstick you personally would like to see used?

E. Woods - Well in the first place, you've got to have time. I think the people that were on before me are selling these programs short at too early a stage. These programs have to have time to mature and develop before the productivity and the effectiveness of them are determined. So you have to wait a while, just like making wine.

Ley - You have to take your time.

E. Woods - Yeah.

Ley - You have said that in the near future -- you've been quoted as saying -- you see the possibility of 50 minority golfers on the professional tours in the near-term future. Yet you look around and you hear the problem of black college coaches not being able to find competitive collegiate golfers. Isn't it going to take a little bit more than just a few years?

E. Woods - Yes, if you determine and look at how long has Tiger been a role model. On the professional level it has been five years, four years, four and a half years. If you take his amateur and junior amateur days, you add another six years to that. So that's 11, 12 years, right?

Ley - Yes.

E. Woods - Now the child that heard about Tiger early is still in that early stage. Now he's in probably, by now, maybe 12 or 13. And it takes time for him to grow up. And the collegiate golf coaches are looking at the kids that are ready to come to college. You see, the crop hasn't reached that level yet.

Now I personally can tell you, I have seen these kids. And they are there, and there is a bunch of them. And I call them weeds, because they don't require the country club nurturing everyday of being watered. All they need is the opportunity. And what is happening is that these kids are being given this opportunity and they are taking this up, this opportunity. And they are starting at an earlier age.

And you are finding -- and I'm seeing -- kids who are extremely athletic who could be world class athletes taking the game up at a very early age, very similar to Tiger. But these kids are now only about 10 or 12 years old.

Ley - So it is going to take some time.

E. Woods - But they are there.

Ley - Yeah they are there. You have been quoted as saying that your son is the first naturally born and bred black professional golfer. What did you mean by that?

E. Woods - Well in the first place, he is a natural golfer. And he took up golf as his principle sport. He didn't take up football and then gravitate to golf. And he took up golf at a very early age of his own choice. That's what I'm talking about.

Ley - He didn't come out of the caddy system, he didn't come out of the UGA.

E. Woods - No.

Ley - What we're watching now on the screen was some of the scenes from one of his many clinics that he gives. Did you encounter -- and we have about 30 seconds left -- did you encounter, and to what degree, racism as you were bringing your son into the game?

E. Woods - Yes, but that's OK, and that was understandable. This country is what it is, and you've got to expect these things if you are going to move ahead.

Ley - And as they say in golf, play through. Earl Woods thank you very much, and again Happy Father's Day. We appreciate your taking the time to be with us today.

E. Woods - Thank you much.

Ley - Next step, we'll be checking our E-mail on your thoughts on Allen Iverson's changing national image.

Ley - The Lakers may have the title, but our look last week at the image crossover of Allen Iverson bringing a variety of e-mail to our in-box.

A viewer in Philly writing - "The national media is just now recognizing Iverson's gutsy determined play. Last year, however, he played the same way, was considered a thug and a problem. Now that he is successful, he's seen as a hero and a warrior on the court. His play hasn't changed, the media's attention has."

And from L.A. - "Why is everybody making such a big deal about Iverson's makeover, just because he is acting like he is supposed to, people are saying what a great person he is. Please, where is Chris Rock when we need him?"

The keyword of, type it on the front page to visit our site, with links and more on today's topic, as well as our library of streaming video and transcripts, and our e-mail address, as always, There it is, and please be in touch.

For a first-hand account of today's topic, chat with Andia Winslow tomorrow, a former National Minority Golf Foundation player of the year, a Yale player at Yale University. Monday at 1 p.m. Eastern, follow the chat link from the front page at

Ley - Tonight at 8 p.m. Eastern, we've got the inter-league passion play, the Yankees and the Mets. Happy Father's Day. Now, all the inter-league highlights, we'll be going live to the U.S. Open and a conversation with Dale Earnhardt Jr.

Rece Davis and Betsy Ross set with "SportsCenter."

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