NEW YORK -- You want to start an argument in a New York bar? Say that Patrick Ewing is one of the all-time greats but just never had the talent around him to win a title with the Knicks.

Or, you can go ahead and rip Ewing for failing to deliver a championship to New York.

Either way, you're going to get into a heated discussion.

	Patrick Ewing waved to the fans while he received a standing ovation at the Garden.

Ewing isn't the greatest Knick in franchise history. "He's certainly in the top three," said Walt Frazier, arguably No.1, followed by Willis Reed and then Ewing. "The only difference is that Patrick never won a championship."

Which is what a great many fans hold against one of the great players in NBA history. When he came to the Knicks as the No. 1 overall pick in 1985, Ewing was expected to lead the Knicks to a championship, if not several. Expectations only grew more when Pat Riley came to New York six years later to coach the Knicks.

"Unfortunately, our best teams with Patrick always had to meet up with Michael Jordan," said former Madison Square Garden CEO Dave Checketts. "And we could never get by Chicago."

Well, join the crowd. So Ewing has a lot in common with Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and John Stockton, other ringless NBA legends who couldn't dethrone Jordan. But Ewing had more failures, going 0-for-5 against the Bulls in the playoffs. So while he is one of the NBA's all-time leading scorers (13th overall), rebounders (19th) and shot-blockers (fourth), it's his shortcomings that are always held against him in New York.

There was the missed finger-roll against Indiana in 1995, in Riley's final game. There was his last-ever playoff game in New York when he missed his final six shots in a loss to the Pacers. He was taunted as he left the court.

Those memories came back to Ewing the other night when he was given numerous ovations in the Garden, and for once, acknowledged the crowd's appreciation by waving to the fans. But it was too little, too late.

"We had a love-hate relationship here through the years," Ewing said. "We had some elite teams; we just never won a championship."

So by all rights, Ewing can't be placed on the highest tier of NBA legends. To get on that rarified level, you need to have won. As Larry Bird said several years back, when asked if it was important for Shaquille O'Neal's legacy that he won at least one championship, "Sure, that makes the difference in how you judge players."

Ewing and the Knicks had their best chance in 1993, when they went up 2-0 against Jordan and the two-time defending Bulls in the conference finals, with the homecourt edge.

"We thought we were the better team, to a point where we had talked ourselves into it," said Doc Rivers, the Knicks' starting point guard on that 60-win team. "When the Bulls won Game 5 (in New York in the infamous Charles Smith game), we were in shock. And then in Game 6 we didn't function too well."

Smith was blamed for failing to convert a basket on three tries. But Ewing, of course, also wasn't spared.

Even when Jordan left to play baseball, Ewing couldn't lead the Knicks to the title. He got to his first Finals in 1994, but was outplayed by Hakeem Olajuwon as the Rockets came back from a 3-2 deficit on their home court to win the title.

Game 7 is remembered in New York for John Starks' 2-for-18 shooting. But Ewing is also still blamed to this day for failing to deliver. That rankles Jeff Van Gundy, his most ardent supporter.

	“	You could not have done more for an organization. Unfortunately, (Ewing) didn't win a championship. But he conducted himself like a champion and put more into trying to win a championship than anyone. ”
		— Jeff Van Gundy

"You could not have done more for an organization," Van Gundy said. "Unfortunately, he didn't win a championship. But he conducted himself like a champion and put more into trying to win a championship than anyone."

But Ewing also brought a lot of criticism on himself. He was aloof with fans and rubbed members of the media the wrong way. So he never got the benefit of the doubt, even if the Knicks didn't really start surrounding him with All-Star caliber talent until the latter part of his New York career. But by then, Ewing was already on the downside, plagued by various injuries.

"He never had the most talent around him, that was true," Rivers said. "The Bulls had better talent, like in 1993."

Jordan, of course, always had Scottie Pippen, to go along with Horace Grant and later Dennis Rodman. Bird had Robert Parish, Kevin McHale and Dennis Johnson. Magic Johnson had Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and James Worthy. Olajuwon certainly didn't have a great supporting cast in 1994. But it still probably rated better than Ewing's.

Consider that for many years that Ewing's shooting guard was Starks, an ex-CBA overachiever, and that his small forward was another CBA reclamation project, Anthony Mason. The Knicks never had a second scoring option to take the heat off Ewing, until Allan Houston's arrival in 1996-97. But shortly thereafter, Ewing went down to a career-altering wrist injury.

Other injuries followed, limiting his effectiveness, including in 1999, when the Knicks went to the 1999 Finals. Ewing was along for the ride because of an Achilles injury. But when he did lead the team, he was considered flawed in that department, too.

"I thought he didn't lead vocally enough, but I didn't think he had to," said Rivers, now Ewing's coach in Orlando. "I never thought that was his job. Leadership comes in a lot of ways. You have some leaders who are very vocal, guys like Michael Jordan, who play hard and demand it, verbally. Some leaders lead by example. Larry Bird wasn't a speechmaker. I didn't hear him talk a whole bunch. But he played so damned hard everybody followed him. Patrick Ewing was more in that mode."

So where does Ewing stack up? A Top 50 player, no doubt. A cinch to make the Hall of Fame.

"His jersey should go up to the rafters," Van Gundy said.

Ewing will probably enjoy that honor one day. But when No. 33 is lifted in the Garden, you can bet that a few thousand fans will point out there are no championship banners from his playing days.

And the debate about Ewing's greatness as a Knick will start all over again.

Mitch Lawrence, who covers the NBA for the New York Daily News, writes a regular NBA column for ESPN.com.